TNs, U07: Food 1 (Partitive Article, Count Noun or Mass Noun, Omitted Articles, De + Definite Art.)

[Originally posted on 12/06/18 on the Duolingo French for English speakers forum by Sitesurf]

The Partitive Article

The partitive article is used for unspecified amounts of uncountable nouns. In English, it can translate to “some”, but it’s often just omitted. Remember that du is a contraction of de + le and that partitives can elide: du and de la become de l’ before a vowel sound.

Gender	Partitive Article	Example
Masculine	du	Je mange du poisson. — I am eating fish.
Feminine	de la	Je mange de la viande. — I am eating meat.
Elided Masc.	de l’	Je mange de l’ananas. — I am eating pineapple.
Elided Fem.	de l’	Je bois de l’eau. — I am drinking water.

Nouns almost never appear without articles in French, so articles must be repeated in serial lists.

Il cuisine du poisson et de la viande — He cooks fish and meat.

Count Noun, Mass Noun, or Both?

Count nouns are discrete and can be counted, like une pomme (“an apple”). They can be modified by definite and indefinite articles, but usually not partitive articles.

Je mange une pomme. — I eat an apple.
Nous mangeons les pommes. — We are eating the apples.

Mass nouns like lait (“milk”) are uncountable, and they can be modified by definite and partitive articles, but not indefinite articles.

Je bois du lait. — I am drinking [some] milk.
Je bois le lait. — I am drinking the milk.

However, many nouns can behave as both count nouns and mass nouns. This is true for most edible things. For instance, consider poisson (“fish”) or vin (“wine”):

Count noun: Le poisson est rouge. — The fish is red.
Mass noun: Je mange du poisson. — I eat [some] fish.
Count noun: Le vin est blanc. — The wine is white.
Mass noun: Je bois du vin rouge ou blanc. — I drink red or white wine.

Note that some mass nouns can be pluralized in English when they refer to multiple types of the noun, but this usage isn’t found in French. For instance, “the fishes” refers to multiple species of fish, while les poissons just refers to multiple fish.

Omitted Articles

When an article is missing in an English sentence, it must be added to the French translation. The definite article can be used to fill this void in four situations:

Almost anywhere one would use “the” in English (i.e. when referring to specific things).
Before the subject of a sentence to state general truths about it.
Before the direct object of a verb of appreciation (like aimer) to express like/dislike.
Before categories (singular or plural), concepts and immaterial things.

If any of the above is true, then use the definite article. Otherwise, use the indefinite or partitive article. When in doubt, add “some” before the English bare noun; if the sentence keeps its meaning, use the indefinite or partitive article.

I like wine, but I am drinking milk. — J’aime le vin, mais je bois du lait.

Both articles are missing in the English version of this example. Aimer expresses fondness for wine, so le vin should be used there. However, boire is not a verb of appreciation, so the partitive du should be used on the uncountable lait.

I study art and I draw cats. — *J’étudie l’art et je dessine des chats.

“Art” is a concept, so l’art should be used there. Dessiner is not an appreciation verb and the plural object “cats” only means “some cats”, so the plural indefinite des should be used on the count noun chats.

Horses are animals. — Les chevaux sont des animaux.

This is a general truth about horses, but #2 above can only apply to subjects, so only chevaux takes a definite article here. Animaux are countable, so use the plural indefinite des.

He likes to eat meat. — Il aime manger de la viande.

This is a tricky example because the meat is the direct object of manger, not aimer. Thus, #3 does not apply and viande cannot take a definite article.

Also, the French definite article can be ambiguous when translating from French to English. Depending on the context, it can refer to either a specific noun or the general sense of a noun.

Les chiens sont nos amis. — Dogs are our friends. / The dogs are our friends.

De + Definite Article

De plus a definite article can also have other meanings. De means “of” or “from”, so this can also indicate possession or association with a definite noun.

La copie du livre. — The copy of the book.
Les copies des livres. — The copies of the books.
L’enfant de la femme. — The woman‘s child.

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Selected comments on original post

Inqstv_Canadian [host]

I found a website that explains some common count and mass nouns in English that could help clarify the difference further.

http://www.cws.illinois.edu/workshop/writers/massnouns/

Additionally, how would words like “le raisin” fit into these definitions? It appears that the word “grape” acts as a count noun in English, while “le raisin” acts as a mass noun in French. Is this correct? If so, are there any other anomalies like the example above?

Sitesurf [contributor]

“Le raisin” is both a mass noun and a count noun. Most of the time, the mass noun is used like “fruit” is in English, but there can be regional differences.

“Grapes” refer to the individual berries, whereas “une grappe” is a bunch and “grapes” are “des grains de raisin”.

Je mange du raisin (mass noun) = I am eating grapes.
On peut faire du vin blanc avec du raisin noir ou blanc (mass noun) /des raisins noirs ou blancs (count noun) = You can make wine with black or white grapes.
Il y a des raisins secs dans le gâteau (count noun) = There are raisins in the cake.

I can’t think of another word used as a mass noun in French and countable in English, but the opposite is very common.

DianaM

This looks like a good place to ask a question that is driving me nuts. When doing the exercises, people are often confused about when to use “de” vs. “des”. In trying to help, I keep coming up against two related issues that I seem to understand personally, but am not finding any resources that back up my intuition. Which I want to do because I’m not a francophone, so my word needs backup.

Articles after adverbs of quantity: Everywhere I look, the rule is stated flatly: after beaucoup, un peu, etc., “des” becomes “de”. And yet…
“Tu m’a donné beaucoup de fruits. J’ai déjà mangé beaucoup des pommes.” Alternatively, “J’ai déjà mangé beaucoup des pommes que tu m’a données.” This use of “beaucoup des” is correct, is it not? I know I’ve seen it. And when people question it, I (and others) usually point out that “beaucoup de pommes” is “a lot of apples”, while “beaucoup des pommes” is “a lot of the apples”. But, again, I can’t find a single place where this exception to the flat rule is even mentioned.
Similar but different: On the discussion page of the exercise “Nous créons une pièce de théâtre qui parle de problèmes importants”, people are asking why it is “qui parle de problèmes” and not “qui parle des problèmes”. Again, my brain tells me it’s “that speaks of problems” vs. “that speaks of the problems”, but I can find nothing that discusses this. I want to say that it has to do with the “de” being connected to “parler” here, but I still can’t find an explanation.

What say you?

Sitesurf [contributor]

The key is in the contraction rules.

1) The preposition “de” always takes precedence over articles.

Indefinite articles (+ countable nouns):

de + un(e) = d’un(e)
de + des = de

Definite articles (countable and uncountable nouns):

de + le = du
de + la = de la
de + l’ = de l’
de + les = des

Partitive articles (uncountable nouns):

de + du = de
de + de la = de
de + de l’ = de

2) Adverbs of quantity ending with “de”, verbs and phrases constructed with “de” use those contractions:

Adverb of quantity “beaucoup de” (+ peu de, un peu de, plus de, autant de, moins de, trop de…) and a number of prepositional phrases (à cause de, au-delà de, au devant de, près de, loin de, autour de…):

Tu m’as donné beaucoup de (= de+des / indefinite) fruits.
J’ai déjà mangé beaucoup des (= de+les / definite) pommes que tu m’as données.
Tu m’as donné beaucoup de (= de+du / partitive) pain.
J’ai déjà beaucoup du (= de+le / definite) pain que tu m’as donné.
Tu m’as donné beaucoup de (= de la / partitive) sauce tomate.
J’ai déjà mangé beaucoup **de la (= de + la / definite) sauce tomate que tu m’as donnée.

Verbs and phrases constructed with “de”:

Parler de (+ venir de, partir de, rentrer de…) :

Une pièce qui parle d’un (= de + un / indefinite) problème important.
Une pièce qui parle de (= de + des / indefinite) problèmes importants.
Une pièce qui parle du (= de + le / definite) problème important du moment.
Une pièce qui parle des (= de + les / definite) problèmes importants du moment.

Avoir besoin de (+ avoir peur de, avoir honte de, avoir envie de… être privé de, être éloigné de, être responsable de…):

J’ai besoin d’un (= de + un / indefinite) couteau.
J’ai besoin de (= de + des / indefinite) couteaux.
J’ai besoin du (= de + le / definite) couteau qui a une longue lame.
J’ai besoin des (= de + les / definite) couteaux qui ont une longue lame.
J’ai besoin d’ (= de + de l’ / partitive) argent.
J’ai besoin de l’ (= de + l’ / definite) argent que j’ai gagné.

AGD6m

Thank you-I wasn’t aware that this information existed!

Sitesurf [contributor]

The reason is that the whole thing was written by the ex-volunteers on the basis of the latest course they wrote before Duolingo removed it to display their in-house course. You can also find a Duome version with all chapters in one document here: https://duome.eu/tips/en/zz#u07

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